Buds formed after pinching

[Nishant]

Hello Friends,

Please share your experience on this.

The buds that are formed by pinching the current year branch tips, How do those buds open out next spring? Do they come with small bluish-coloured needles or do they come just like other needles? Or does it depend on how strong the new buds formed were in last fall? Does pinching earlier in fall help the bud to become stronger as it gets more time till winter sets-in ?

Thanks

 

[RJG2]

I don't know pines, but I'm sure others will want more info.

What type of pine? Exactly when did you "pinch"? Did you cut off all of the current season's growth, or just partially?

And as always, pics!

 

[Nishant]

I have scot pine and my question is about pinching just the current years growth on the top, typically say the top one-third which then causes the formation of new buds on the top.

 

[yashu]

I have scot pine and my question is about pinching just the current years growth on the top, typically say the top one-third which then causes the formation of new buds on the top.

That doesn’t “cause” budding. Pinching is done to control energy in single flush pines. It sounds like you might be confusing single flush and double flush techniques.

Also, on single flush like scots pine those techniques are performed in the spring before the candles push needles out.

 

[yashu]

That said, I may not be familiar with this technique you’re referring to. I think in the fall generally you would be doing shoot selection where there are more than two growing from the same spot but now I’m curious about this technique you’re talking about so I’ll be watching for more replies.

 

[Nishant]

When you trim the newly formed branches ( for whatever reason ), the new buds are formed at the tip where the trimming was done. That's a well-known thing.

My question is that when these buds open up next spring, will they produce small bluish needles OR the usual green needles as if the trimming never happened? I am asking this question because I do see quite a few such bluish needles bunches on my tree but I don't recall when I trimmed the original branch.

I believe that sometimes if the trimming is done in spring or early summer, then a strong scot pine is able to throw a second flush of needles in the same year and these are small and bluish-coloured with a week bud. I suspect the ones on my tree are of this type.

 

[Wires_Guy_wires]

@Nishant , I PM'd you this answer, but I might as well post it here with some small additions.

The smaller, more flat and wide needles that come out of a bud can be juvenile needles. The first year scots pine seedlings produce these needles, and they do so again on older plants if the tree is stressed for some reason.
If there was a dormancy in between, and the cuts you made were not too aggressive, I wouldn't expect juvenile foliage. So I would expect adult needles only.
However, some backbuds might produce a couple flushes of tiny flat needles too. Witches brooms, whether induced by mites or something else, have a tendency to do so as well.
Seeing how resinous stone pine juvenile needles can be and their adult needles are not resinous at all, I'm thinking pines do this juvenile needle stuff later in life to deter herbivores.

If you're seeing a second flush, it's not the type of scots pine, but instead, the cuts were made too early in the year: the pine hasn't gotten the return of the investment of the first flush yet.. Or viewed in the light of 'balancing strength while the first flush is expanding'; the balancing act of pinching was done too late and the plant responded as if the candles were cut just like JBP/JRP. We balance strength before the needles expand completely if possible, just about when you can distinguish the "naked neck" of the candle and the parts that do have needles. If the needles are (almost) fully formed but not yet hardened and we pinch at that time, we have a chance of inducing a second flush.

I've noticed all scots pines can do this second flush if they're strong, and it's a matter of timing. That's why I cut the new shoots in half around halfway in september for our climate, and I pinch for balancing when the shoots are just showing how many needles they'll bear.

Does that answer your questions?

 

[Shibui]

Sounds like juvenile growth as a response to pruning. Usually a response to pruning younger trees but more rarely in older pines depending how hard the prune and time of year.
As usual, photos would take a lot of the guess work out on interpretation of the terms like 'pinching', 'bluish', 'buds', 'needles' etc.

 

[yashu]

@Nishant , I PM'd you this answer, but I might as well post it here with some small additions.

The smaller, more flat and wide needles that come out of a bud can be juvenile needles. The first year scots pine seedlings produce these needles, and they do so again on older plants if the tree is stressed for some reason.
If there was a dormancy in between, and the cuts you made were not too aggressive, I wouldn't expect juvenile foliage. So I would expect adult needles only.
However, some backbuds might produce a couple flushes of tiny flat needles too. Witches brooms, whether induced by mites or something else, have a tendency to do so as well.
Seeing how resinous stone pine juvenile needles can be and their adult needles are not resinous at all, I'm thinking pines do this juvenile needle stuff later in life to deter herbivores.

If you're seeing a second flush, it's not the type of scots pine, but instead, the cuts were made too early in the year: the pine hasn't gotten the return of the investment of the first flush yet.. Or viewed in the light of 'balancing strength while the first flush is expanding'; the balancing act of pinching was done too late and the plant responded as if the candles were cut just like JBP/JRP. We balance strength before the needles expand completely if possible, just about when you can distinguish the "naked neck" of the candle and the parts that do have needles. If the needles are (almost) fully formed but not yet hardened and we pinch at that time, we have a chance of inducing a second flush.

I've noticed all scots pines can do this second flush if they're strong, and it's a matter of timing. That's why I cut the new shoots in half around halfway in september for our climate, and I pinch for balancing when the shoots are just showing how many needles they'll bear.

Does that answer your questions?

Thanks for also putting this on the thread as another interested party with a young scots.

 

[Nishant]

@Nishant , I PM'd you this answer, but I might as well post it here with some small additions.

The smaller, more flat and wide needles that come out of a bud can be juvenile needles. The first year scots pine seedlings produce these needles, and they do so again on older plants if the tree is stressed for some reason.
If there was a dormancy in between, and the cuts you made were not too aggressive, I wouldn't expect juvenile foliage. So I would expect adult needles only.
However, some backbuds might produce a couple flushes of tiny flat needles too. Witches brooms, whether induced by mites or something else, have a tendency to do so as well.
Seeing how resinous stone pine juvenile needles can be and their adult needles are not resinous at all, I'm thinking pines do this juvenile needle stuff later in life to deter herbivores.

If you're seeing a second flush, it's not the type of scots pine, but instead, the cuts were made too early in the year: the pine hasn't gotten the return of the investment of the first flush yet.. Or viewed in the light of 'balancing strength while the first flush is expanding'; the balancing act of pinching was done too late and the plant responded as if the candles were cut just like JBP/JRP. We balance strength before the needles expand completely if possible, just about when you can distinguish the "naked neck" of the candle and the parts that do have needles. If the needles are (almost) fully formed but not yet hardened and we pinch at that time, we have a chance of inducing a second flush.

I've noticed all scots pines can do this second flush if they're strong, and it's a matter of timing. That's why I cut the new shoots in half around halfway in september for our climate, and I pinch for balancing when the shoots are just showing how many needles they'll bear.

Does that answer your questions?

Hello Wire_Guy,

Many Thanks for your answers. Yes it does answer my question. I have a few trim that I did in late fall and the buds are formed on the tip. I will just keep a watch on them as to what is the needle size and color. I would expect them to green and not bluish flat.