Styling a Sylvester

[Deep Sea Diver]

We do not decandle single flush pine trees. This endangers the tree. This is a double flush pine technique.

Please us the usual single flush technique.

Pretty sure this was discussed on one of your Mugo threads last year.

Cheers
DSD sends

 

[bonsai-max]

We do not decandle single flush pine trees. This endangers the tree. This is a double flush pine technique.

Not decandle sorry, candle pinch for balancing strength. I remember the rules:

• Soft pruning, Shoot cutting for Back budding:

Pruning to induce buds further back; Let the

tree grow the entire spring and summer (balancing strength applied) and then let the

needles harden off (dark green, cuticle present – silvery glow, takes more effort to pull them

off). Wait until buds emerge as well. In the middle of august or late august (1.5-2 months

before the first frost, give or take) cut this years shoots back to 5-10 needle pairs. This

induces backbudding in scots pines just before fall starts in deciduous trees. Do not cut back

as JRP/JBP, scots need those new shoots.

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

Gosh don’t get the above reply at all? Sorry are you saying a Scots’ Pine is a double flush? Pretty sure it isn’t…at least not ours.

Here’s the single flush method ..proper use of this will cause back budding over a period of three years if it’s at all possible. Works brilliantly for us.

Managing growth by systematic candle pinching… not candle pruning.

Let grow in spring. no fertilizer!

Pinch when candles push and scales appear on candles…(finish pinching before needle bundles push out….)

1. When candles readily apparent and pushing outside profile of needle bundle rosette/Silhouette, break/cut longest candles to just inside profile of needle rosette. This pushes energy back to smaller candles.

2. Next when medium strength candles push outside profile, do the same, Do any strong candles that have pushed again.

3. Continue trimming strong and medium candles as needed…usually a few push more to profile or to point where there are still about six needle bundles on the candle remaining. (Based upon my experience only happens first year after that outliers are rare…. Unless one fertilizes! However one must always leave needle buds on a candle…even if out side profile…. Can trim next year.)

4. Do not trim weak candles.

5. Exception weak branches, don’t candle prune at all…. but usually these don’t have many strong candles ime.

6. Fertilize/prune after needles are hardened off… sheaths drop

7. At this point do cut backs if there is solid amount of interior growth to cut back to. Once there is m, be sure to leave enough butter name so there is sufficient growth to maintain strength in the branch… depends on tree.

cheers
DSD sends

 

[bonsai-max]

Gosh don’t get the above reply at all? Sorry are you saying a Scots’ Pine is a double flush? Pretty sure it isn’t…at least not ours.

I have read the "Compiled Posts by Vance Wood on Mugo Pines"
I was thinking that the same method is ok for the scott pine that are like the Mugos, single flush, that's why is not good decandeling the mugos totally but always leave some needle of this season.


CANDLING:

• Don't think about de-candling until you start getting some vigorous ramification. I have found that it takes roughly two growing seasons on a new tree before things develop enough that de-candling becomes an option. Let the tree grow freely, with only selective bud selection in the fall or early spring.
• When ready, in July I totally remove the new growth all the way down to the starting point from the current seasons growth plus about an eighth of an inch of the new stem.
• There should be needles left from last year- this is where the new buds will form. These buds will not break until the next season.
• Mugos will not produce a second flush of growth as with a JBP. You are looking to produce an abundance of new smaller buds up and down the branches that will, next spring, produce shorter internodes and shorter needles.
• This de-candling method is best done for three consecutive years, letting the tree rest on the fourth year.
• At this time I also repot, but not root prune. I wait to root prune until the fourth year, in which I do not candle prune.
• Water only as needed for the next couple of weeks until new buds start to form. Provided your tree has been fertilized enough, this method will give you many new buds, especially if there are needles present to fuel their growth.

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

Interesting point. Here’s some thoughts and data to help

First, would not equate Mugo response to Scots Pine response.

The method given above is also called the Kimura Method… used widely by bonsai practitioners with subtle variations. Bange named after Mr. Kimura in Japan. Here’sa JWP that had this method done to it for two growing seasons



Second Vance Wood says in Rule one…. “Don't think about de-candling until you start getting some vigorous ramification” (Don’t feel bad, most folks miss this point and wonder why their Mugos don’t respond well)

The tree shown on this thread does not have vigorous ramification… which comes from using the single flush method…. Which also causes vigorous back budding.

Mugos are really strong. Not sure a Scots would compare… but once vigorous ramification occurs using the single flush method - it’s your tree your choice

Anyways, best of luck. Love to see your results!

Cheers
DSD sends

 

[bonsai-max]

Interesting point. Here’s some thoughts and data to help

Thank you very much for your ideas and comments. Normally here Scott pine are more stronger than the Mugos, a lot of folks use the Vance method here, some use the JBP pine method too ( but i don't agree). We are CFB as zone, but yes your point about the general of my plant weakness is true. I will start as you suggested and we will see...

 

[Deep Sea Diver]

Good luck!.

Do not know anything about using the double flush method on a single flush pine.

Between the work we do here and as a weekly volunteer at a local bonsai museum we have never tried this. However the techniques used produce consistently positive and predictable results at both sites. But they do take a 2-3 years to do so and start producing marked results.

Older trees it’s sometimes better to graft time wise,

Good luck

cheers
DSD sends

 

[bonsai-max]

Interesting point. Here’s some thoughts and data to help

Have a look at this video from Ryan Neil, min 12.00.

 

[clem]

Sorry are you saying a Scots’ Pine is a double flush? Pretty sure it isn’t…at least not ours.

I tried "mekiri" in May, on 1 young and very vigorous scotts pines growing near to my place, near to the beach (in the sand). It produced a second flush with a lot of new candles (5 or more) in the strong parts, and 2 or 3 small candles in the weak zones.
But, in a Bonsai pot, on weaker and older trees, i wouldn't take the risk to do that ^^

 

[clem]

In order to do the cascade i need backbudding on the first branch.
To do this I am thinking to decandle all the branches except the first one. Theoretically all the energy will go to the lower branch and during the summer I can cut back the new grows leaving 10 couple of needles on this branch and should backbudding... Or not ?

Not sure it is the best solution : To get back budding, if your tree is strong (sun + fertilizers), normally it will produce new buds on the branches. If you pinch the crown candles, your tree will not be as strong as a tree with no pinchings.

I'm not sur your pine is really a scott pine by the way. The candles, the bark of the young branches could be mugo pine. Are you sure it is really a scotts pine ? Can you take pics of the new candles ?

 

[bonsai-max]

I'm not sur your pine is really a scott pine by the way. The candles, the bark of the young branches could be mugo pine. Are you sure it is really a scotts pine ? Can you take pics of the new candles ?

Hi, here you are, to me looks as a Scott pine, but maybe I am wrong

 

[clem]

Imho, it is not a scott pine. Could be a mugo pine or a scottsXmugo (hybrid)

 

[clem]

[...] I can cut back the new grows leaving 10 couple of needles on this branch and should backbudding... Or not ?

If your tree isn't strong enough, it will produce buds only on the extremity (tips) of the branches and no backbudding.
IMO the safer is to let your tree get very strong (no triming/pinching, just fertilizers and sun) and cross fingers to have a "natural" backbudding (just my2cents)

 

[bonsai-max]

Imho, it is not a scott pine. Could be a mugo pine or a scottsXmugo (hybrid)

Now I have doubt, an Hybrid I don't think so, never seen in this area, but a Mugo maybe. The PO said that is a Scott pine...

 

[clem]

i could be wrong, the bottom right picture shows a candle that is so thick that i doubt on a scott pine... scott pine are usually thinner, less thick (candles and twigs).
Maybe it is a different "cultivar" or "sub specie" of scott pine ?

 

[baron]

Could this be a Pinus Austriaca aka Pinus nigra var. austriaca? They are single flush too
I have one and the candles look quite similar, just as fat

BTW, i have also been told about using the double flush technique on single flush pines (scots's pines) to enduce backbudding.
But was told to only do this once every few years and only when the tree is very strong. So you would have to work and build towards this;
build up the energy in the tree for a couple of years with the single flush pinching technique (tree has to be in a little development container, no repotting during the years as this will weaken it again).
When the tree is very vigorous, don't pinch, but decandle and it should give an explosion of buds. The timing is very crucial.

 

[bonsai-max]

A pinus Arnold or Austriaca can be, also very common here. The candles are too big for a Mugo at least on my experience

 

[Japonicus]

1st 3 pics show different candles on a Scotts pine.
3rd pic has strikingly similar pair of candles to a mugo.
Scotts pine


2 Mugo pines

 

[bonsai-max]

2 Mugo pines

From that ones looks a mugo

 

[Japonicus]

From that ones looks a mugo

Looking for different needle characteristics, the mugo needle rolls without slipping between thumb and index finger pads.
The scotts slipped but also rolled, but the mugo never slipped when trying to roll it back n forth. The Scotts branches are more sparse as the mugo typically is more a fuller thicker needle coverage dwarf.