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pineslayer
December 1st, 2006, 09:46 PM
I couldn't decide whether to put this in "Black Pines" or "Propogating" so here it is :)

This is probably the best guide I have ever seen on how to grow black pine from seeds. Great photos and great descriptions. If you can't grow Black Pines after this then you must be me :)

The original article was in Spanish by José Acuña, from 'Centro de Bonsai Tenerife'. See this fine article here. (http://www.portalbonsai.com/bonsaiportal/article.asp?id=10&pag=1)

zelk
December 6th, 2006, 06:45 PM
i have read that article, very usefull, i will use it this coming spring on about 100 scotts pine seeds that i am stratifiying right now. thanks i lost the link to it

darrellw
December 6th, 2006, 07:23 PM
And after you get your seedlings started, here is a good article one the next steps:

http://www.members.aol.com/okamigardens/Articles/DevelopingPines.htm

-Darrell

Bonsai Nut
December 6th, 2006, 10:00 PM
All these pine articles got me motivated. I just bought 500 black pine seeds on eBay :)

http://stores.ebay.com/Seeds-and-More

Tachigi
December 7th, 2006, 02:42 AM
And after you get your seedlings started, here is a good article one the next steps:

http://www.members.aol.com/okamigardens/Articles/DevelopingPines.htm

-Darrell

Darrell.... I would take this article with a grain of salt. There are more than a few mistatements. For example, this person claims that JBP do not back bud on old wood. I can tell you that the 20 I have in my growing ground that are in development all back bud on old wood. Thats what JBP do if there stimulated to do so. I am not invalidating what this guy said. Only suggesting that you need to pick and choose the content for whats valid. If you want a great article on developing JBP read the article in Bonsai Europe, December issue. They are developing these JBP for shohin trees, but it could be taken the next step for larger trees. The theory is all the same.:)

darrellw
December 7th, 2006, 07:22 AM
Darrell.... I would take this article with a grain of salt. There are more than a few mistatements. For example, this person claims that JBP do not back bud on old wood. I can tell you that the 20 I have in my growing ground that are in development all back bud on old wood. Thats what JBP do if there stimulated to do so. I am not invalidating what this guy said. Only suggesting that you need to pick and choose the content for whats valid. If you want a great article on developing JBP read the article in Bonsai Europe, December issue. They are developing these JBP for shohin trees, but it could be taken the next step for larger trees. The theory is all the same.:)

Hi Tom,

Certainly, almost anything on the internet needs a bit of salt :-)

It's been a while since I completly read the article, so I guess I missed the statment about back budding. Like you say, if treated properly you can get back budding on wood up to about 10 years old, though they don't react like many decidious trees, where you can basically throw out all the branches and start again from a bare trunk.

There is some good information on developing seedlings into stock in there, however. Two other great references are the black pine articles on the Evergreen Gardenworks site:

http://www.evergreengardenworks.com/pines.htm
http://www.evergreengardenworks.com/pines2.htm

As well as Brent Walston's "Bonsai Nurseryman" blog (he's the owner of Evergreen Gardenworks):

http://bonsainurseryman.typepad.com/bonsainurseryman/

You will need to read back through the older blogs to find all the articles.

-Darrell

Gnome
December 7th, 2006, 11:30 PM
Last year I bought the Bonsai Today Pines book (a valuable resource for those interested in Pines) and was inspired to try my hand at growing pines from seed. Last fall I collected cones from what I believe to be a Scots Pine. The first picture shows the newly sprouted seeds on April 22. Despite a fairly free draining mix and careful watering I lost a fair amount to what I assume to be damping off.

When it was time to pot up I cut the roots as described in the book. For those of you not familiar with this technique it involves removing the seedlings tap root and then handling them as cuttings. This is done in order to begin the process of establishing a good radial nebari.

At this point I had 52 seedlings in 2 1/4" square pots. Some of course did not survive the root cutting and after they had settled down I had 36 nice little trees, almost 70% survival. I fed them about every 10 days with 20-20-20 water soluble fertilizer. I also used homemade fertilizer cakes.

The second picture shows the seedlings on October 07. I lost a 6 more due to some squirrels or chipmunks taking a liking to them. All in all I am pleased with my first attempt and plan to start a batch of Black Pines next spring.


Norm

Tachigi
December 8th, 2006, 04:20 AM
Gnome....You should feel pleased. I wonder....is there a great American master piece in them there pots?

Gnome
December 8th, 2006, 09:12 AM
Tom,

Thanks for your encouragement. Since I have had very poor results with transplanted Pines I thought that I would give this a shot. Brent Walston says somewhere in his writings that it seems to take about 50 years to produce a truly fine Pine. I don't think I have that much time left but I will try to get them off to a good start.

Does anyone know about the differences between Japanese Black Pines and Scots Pines? In particular I am concerned with the candling technique described for Black Pines. Is this appropriate for this species? Thanks.

Norm

Graydon
December 10th, 2006, 06:44 PM
Norm

Those are some sweet little pines you have started. You are doing something right. Please keep us updated as to the progress on these little guys. Am I correct that the time between the sprouting and the shot in the little pots is about 6 months?

Bonsai Nut
December 10th, 2006, 08:53 PM
Last fall I collected cones from what I believe to be a Scots Pine.

Hey Gnome;

Did you collect the cones off a tree or from the ground? How did you separate the seeds from the cones?

Gnome
December 11th, 2006, 03:25 PM
Graydon,


Am I correct that the time between the sprouting and the shot in the little pots is about 6 months? Yes, Just about 5 1/2 months between the photos. Thanks for the kind words.

B.N.


Did you collect the cones off a tree or from the ground? How did you separate the seeds from the cones? I pretty much followed the article in the book i cited. If you have not acquired it yet the procedure is as follows. The previous fall (2005) I collected closed, green cones directly from the tree. I soaked them in a fungicide solution (Daconil) overnight. Then they were dried until they began to open naturally over the winter. I did not perform any stratification. When planting time arrived I soaked the seeds overnight, the viable seeds sink, the rest were discarded.

Norm

Graydon
December 12th, 2006, 06:46 PM
Yes, Just about 5 1/2 months between the photos. Thanks for the kind words.

Thanks. So answer me a couple of things if you would be so kind. I too have the Pine book and have recently treated some sprouted seeds (pinus thunbergii) as cuttings like you did and as per the book.

What strength hormone did you use?

How long was the recovery before they put on more growth?

I have a flat that I cut and several flats that I left uncut. The uncut ones are growing fine but the cut ones are just sitting there, still green. I did get anxious and gently pulled one out - it did have the start of new roots! I am keeping them in the shade until it's safe to expose them to full sun but I don't know how long that may be.

I'll try to shoot a few shots and post them if I can get some daylight time to do so. Nothing as nice as what you have going...

Gnome
December 12th, 2006, 07:26 PM
Graydon,

I used "TakeRoot" by Schultz. A talc based hormone that has a strength of 0.1% IBA. In checking my notes I find that I did not record any specific length of time but there was a definite lag in growth during which time I lost about 30% of the seedlings.

I will be interested in hearing your observations, regarding the difference between the cut and un-cut individuals, when you re-pot. In your climate, I would not be surprised if you catch up and surpass what I have accomplished. How do Pines do in your area?

On separate note, when reviewing my notes I found no mention of soaking the seeds to separate them as I stated above. Must have been a different batch of seeds that I had in mind when I wrote the previous post. My apologies for the confusion.

Norm

Graydon
December 14th, 2006, 07:32 AM
Graydon,

I used "TakeRoot" by Schultz. A talc based hormone that has a strength of 0.1% IBA. In checking my notes I find that I did not record any specific length of time but there was a definite lag in growth during which time I lost about 30% of the seedlings.

I will be interested in hearing your observations, regarding the difference between the cut and un-cut individuals, when you re-pot. In your climate, I would not be surprised if you catch up and surpass what I have accomplished. How do Pines do in your area?

On separate note, when reviewing my notes I found no mention of soaking the seeds to separate them as I stated above. Must have been a different batch of seeds that I had in mind when I wrote the previous post. My apologies for the confusion.

Norm

Thanks again Norm. I used a similar strength hormone. I looked at them yesterday and had lost one (lost as in gone - must have blown away) but the others are bright green and happy. They are in the shade with mist. I have considered adding bottom heat as I have been told this will help cuttings root better/faster to avoid rot.

Pines do great down here. Well, black pines and red pines. We started some virginia pines from liners a few weeks ago to see how they will do.

My flats are trays of 18 pots, the pots are 2 3/4 I think. I have those 17 that I cut and rooted, 1 flat that I trimmed the roots almost off and then 2 other flats of uncut seedlings.

Everything was started in a small grain akadama, pumice and very coarse sand mix.

I'll try to get some photos this weekend as well.

Gnome
December 14th, 2006, 02:32 PM
Graydon,


I'll try to get some photos this weekend as well. I look forward to seeing them. Are you a subscriber to Bonsai Today? There is an article, a reprint I believe, detailing the process of pines from seed.

Norm

Bonsai Nut
December 14th, 2006, 05:39 PM
Graydon,
Are you a subscriber to Bonsai Today? There is an article, a reprint I believe, detailing the process of pines from seed.


There are several, actually. My favorite was way back in issue #20 where they had the guy who raised black pines in colanders. I think the article (and several others) are reprinted in their "Black Pine" book (Stone Lantern Publishing). I have asked for a copy for Christmas so I can't tell you what's in it yet :)

Gnome
December 14th, 2006, 06:40 PM
B.N.

Sorry I wasn't more clear. There is an article on pines in the current issue. And yes, the B.T. book does describe the use of colanders. First singly then later, doubled up. By the way, the binding on my copy failed after relatively little use.

Norm

rlist
December 14th, 2006, 06:52 PM
Call Stone Lantern about the Pine book. It is a semi-common problem with some earlier ones, and they will replace it.

JasonG
December 15th, 2006, 07:47 AM
Rich is right.... My copy came unbound after a few times of thumbing through it. I called Stone Lantern and they got me out a new copy right away. They are good folks with good customer service... Give them a call...

Jason

Graydon
December 15th, 2006, 05:30 PM
Graydon,

I look forward to seeing them. Are you a subscriber to Bonsai Today? There is an article, a reprint I believe, detailing the process of pines from seed.

Norm

I'm not a subscriber. Our club has a subscription and perhaps the "lifetime club librarian and keeper of all good bonsai books" may be willing to let me borrow the most recent issue until I get my azalea book back - hint hint...

I was going to photo them today but I got sidetracked potting several (64) seedling JBP that came in. I'll shoot those as well. We are getting some pretty good seedlings from a north Florida tree liner grower. The last 100 we got looked so good we had to get more. Now I need more space.

My Pine book is getting ragged and a copy I got someone else has fallen apart. I'll contact them about replacements next week - thanks for the tip!

Gnome
December 16th, 2006, 12:50 AM
Rlist & Jason,

Thanks for the heads up. I contacted Stone Lantern via E-Mail and have received a speedy reply. I am expecting a new copy soon.

Norm

pineslayer
December 16th, 2006, 07:28 AM
I might have to go buy some seeds. I am concerned how long it takes to grow into bonsai. Should I be thinking five years? 10 years?

Graydon
December 16th, 2006, 09:22 AM
I might have to go buy some seeds. I am concerned how long it takes to grow into bonsai. Should I be thinking five years? 10 years?

Pines from seed are more about the proper path than the destination. To me it's about having the opportunity to do things right that most of the material out there did not have done very well. Examples are nebari and branch placement. Throw in movement as well. I think I get more enjoyment from the development side than the final tree in a pot side.

10 years for smaller pines perhaps. The Stone Lantern book references one grower having super results in less than 10 years but we have no idea how long it took for that grower to work out all of the kinks.

You are also able to throw a larger net with seeds, meaning a few bucks and some time you catch 200 plants. From those 200 seedlings you weed out 20 - 50 with potential. Over the next few years you again weed out the not so good ones and perhaps wind up with 10 real good trees in development.

Don't want to go the seed route? Consider using liners or seedlings. That will get you a 2 year jump on things and at the point you get them it's still not too late to correct for nebari issues, low branches and movement. NOW is the time to try to get seedlings and pot them up. Bare-root shipping is happening and the season is right.

I think that when I am too old to bother with this stuff someone will get a bunch of pines just starting to have potential.

Brent
December 16th, 2006, 10:19 AM
I'll second what Graydon said and throw in a little more. You can start off on the left foot even with seedlings. I start THOUSANDS of seedlings of different species every year, but I buy my black pine seedlings. I do this because I can get them for about twenty five cents each and they are better than anything I can do in the nursery. I buy one year old field grown seedlings (planted as seeds in an open field). Because of the sunlight and exposure these seedlings are short, dense, and compact, with all their first node branching still extant. MY pine seedlings are leggy pitiful things. Because of my climate, I can't duplicate what they can do in Oregon, and at the price, why even bother? As I just posted on a Bonsaisite post, be careful not to be pennywise and pound foolish.

You can see the 1-0 seedlings that I buy in the blog below in the post "Where it all begins, these are very similar to the ones that Graydon gets.

And Graydon, if you get ten trees out of 200, I salute you. I got one tree out of 100 starting with one gallon plants, but then I did have to invent the wheel twenty years.

Brent
EvergreenGardenworks.com
see our blog at http://BonsaiNurserymany.typepad.com

Brent
December 16th, 2006, 10:22 AM
The blog address is incorrect, typing too fast:

http://BonsaiNurseryman.typepad.com

Brent

Graydon
December 19th, 2006, 10:32 AM
Graydon,

I look forward to seeing them. Are you a subscriber to Bonsai Today? There is an article, a reprint I believe, detailing the process of pines from seed.

Norm

Here's a couple of shots of the cut and uncut seedlings. Sorry the photos are not great, I'm trying to save server space etc.

First is my pitiful grafting bench where I keep the grafted pines in as much shade as I can. I have the flat of cut ones here. They get misted a few times a day to keep them sufficiently wet.

Second is the flat of cut ones. All seem to be well. Third and fourth are random cut ones showing root development.

Last is the flats of uncut ones. They would have been cut but I missed the timing and the stems started to lignify so... perhaps next time. If our weather seems to stay as warm as it has been I may try cutting a few of these.

Bonsai Nut
December 19th, 2006, 03:18 PM
I do this because I can get them for about twenty five cents each

Can you share your source? That seems like a decent price...

Brent
December 19th, 2006, 05:13 PM
http://www.BrooksTreeFarm.com

They are wholesale however, so you will have to buy them in quantities of 100. I am not sure if they have a minimum order amount. The 1-0 are not listed in the catalog, I special request them, but they are usually available early in the season.

Brent

Gnome
December 20th, 2006, 03:49 PM
Graydon,

Thanks for the pictures. I found the one showing the root pruned seedling interesting as I did not up-root any of mine just to check them out. How long do you intend to leave them in the first pots?

By the way, I received my fresh copy of the Pines book today.

Norm

Bonsai Nut
December 20th, 2006, 04:58 PM
Thanks Brent for the link. I'll definitely check it out. What is the "2-0" versus "1-0" nomenclature?

I got my 500 black pine seeds today, so into the fridge they go! I'll plant late February. I think it is warm enough then in Southern Cal.

Graydon
December 20th, 2006, 06:30 PM
Graydon,

Thanks for the pictures. I found the one showing the root pruned seedling interesting as I did not up-root any of mine just to check them out. How long do you intend to leave them in the first pots?

By the way, I received my fresh copy of the Pines book today.

Norm

I'm a curious bugger, can't resist seeing the magic even if that means some die. They are in a coarse sand and small akadama so they slipped out easily after I shook the container around a bit. To replant I dumped some of the soil in my hand, set the seedling and backfilled. They should stay in those small pots at least until this time next year as I want as close to full colonization of roots before I pot up to 8" bulb pans or colanders.

I gotta email about my pine book. Did you just email the main stone lantern address? I have no idea where my receipt is, do they need proof of purchase?

Gnome
December 20th, 2006, 08:17 PM
Graydon,

I contacted them at "contact@stonelantern.com". By way of proof I provided a jpeg attachment showing my dismembered book.

B.N.

The numbers refer to how many years that the seedlings have spent in the seedling bed and how many in the transplant bed, respectively.

Norm

t.scope
December 27th, 2006, 05:04 PM
hi, looks nice place here!
i add my two cents: i start pine seedlings, despite brent's articles :rolleyes: and according the articles mentioned in the begining of this tread, for 2-3 years now, pinus halepensis (the most drough-alkaline tolerant pine) seeds from cones that i colect (easiest around), starting in pure vermiculite, repoting spring in a mix of pumice 5-8mm (70%) with some vermiculite, pine bark, and surface soil from the pine forest. i dont dare to cut roots so much but at repoting i manage them, cuting the long of them as they look to spread by itselfs, using vance wood type pots (not colanders but plastik pots with a lot of holes at them). i concider it an experiment as the survival rate isn't so big (say 60% ?) and i cannot provide best conditions yet, but it has fun and as said before you have some starters that you can handle from early stages of development. besides i experienced many things about pines. pics coming soon, in an a more accurate article about halepensis with some nursery plants and yamadori, thanks to brent.
keep good job here, thanks, criss

rlist
December 28th, 2006, 08:59 AM
FYI... These guys are a sponsor of IBC, and I just saw their site for the first time today. Looks like a viable source of seeds.

http://www.mishobonsai.com/

Graydon
December 28th, 2006, 09:04 AM
FYI... These guys are a sponsor of IBC, and I just saw their site for the first time today. Looks like a viable source of seeds.

http://www.mishobonsai.com/

Yeah - I got my JBP seed from them earlier this year. Fast shipping and nice seeds. Almost all sprouted. I like them!

mapleman77
May 26th, 2009, 03:27 PM
Hey Norm and others, can you post some pictures of your trees? I think that they should be a LITTLE bigger by now. :D

David

Bonsai Nut
May 26th, 2009, 03:43 PM
Yeah, they're a little bigger, but they aren't bonsai yet :)

JTGJr25
May 26th, 2009, 03:49 PM
Yea Norm I'm interested to see. I think you should shoot for shohin with these so you can enjoy them before your time is up ;). Would be good to here from you.


Tom

Gnome
May 26th, 2009, 05:39 PM
mapleman77,

OK, here you go. Of the remaining trees about half were potted up this year. I had intended to do them all but the Dollar store did not have enough colanders on hand and I would have probably been short on medium anyway, so I only did the larger ones. The ones that were lagging behind were left in the pond baskets that they have been in since the beginning of their second summer in 2007. I'll have to be sure to be better prepared next year.

Something of interest though, the ones that were not moved this year are ahead of the ones that were transplanted. The candles on the smaller group are coming along nicely but the other group is just beginning to show some movement.

The smaller one here had its terminal bud removed by some critter a few years back, I think it may work out in the long run though.

Tom,


I think you should shoot for shohin with these so you can enjoy them before your time is up ;)

Thanks for your concern but I'm not ready to go on the cart just yet.:p

Norm

mapleman77
May 26th, 2009, 06:39 PM
Hi Norm!

Thanks for showing me the pics. It's amazing to see such nice healthy trees develop from tiny little sprouts...ah, if only my cedars of cyprus would be as big as your pines right now! They are only about 3 inches tall and JUST starting to really grow...

I really like the collander idea. Is the idea to get the maximum amount of air to the roots? I've seen this before but have no asked any questions about it.

BTW, have you figured out what species of pine you've grown yet? Looks nice and relatively short needled to me.

David

sassa
May 28th, 2009, 06:07 AM
Hello,
in connection with the JWP,JBP book and the article of growing JPB from seed I wanted to know
after how much time do the seedlings turn violet and ready to be cut.

Regards,
Sassa.

waltr1
May 28th, 2009, 07:08 AM
Hello,
in connection with the JWP,JBP book and the article of growing JPB from seed I wanted to know
after how much time do the seedlings turn violet and ready to be cut.

Regards,
Sassa.
If my memory is good, 3-5 weeks after they sprout.

Gnome
May 28th, 2009, 09:48 AM
Hi Norm!

Thanks for showing me the pics. It's amazing to see such nice healthy trees develop from tiny little sprouts...ah, if only my cedars of cyprus would be as big as your pines right now! They are only about 3 inches tall and JUST starting to really grow...

I really like the collander idea. Is the idea to get the maximum amount of air to the roots? I've seen this before but have no asked any questions about it.

BTW, have you figured out what species of pine you've grown yet? Looks nice and relatively short needled to me.

David

I'm still going under the assumption that they are Scots Pines. The colanders provide excellent drainage and also provide some automatic root pruning. When root tips exit the holes they die back and this in turn encourages greater ramification of roots deeper in the pot. These, or similar, are often used with collected material that may not have an adequate root system at first.

Norm

cray13
June 1st, 2009, 11:12 AM
I'm following Bonsai Today's publication regarding developing JBP from seed. This is the beginning of my fourth year and I thought I'd share some of my results. I started out purchasing 2-0 bareroot seedlings from Musser forests my first year and have continued to order at least fifty 2 year old seedlings every year from Musser. Three years ago I ordered Mikawa JBP from www.mishobonsai.com and have continued to use misho as my source for the past three years.

In the following images you'll see this year's batch of seedlings which emerged in late April and then you can see last years seedlings which had their tap roots cuts and were planted in four inch pots. You'll also see the seedlings from 2007 (two years ago) which have had a second root pruning, initial trunk shaping with wire and have been moved to 1 gallon Air-Pots (root pruning pots from Florikan). Next to the one gallon air pots you'll see the 2.5 gallon Air-Pots containing some of the bareroot seedlings from 2006 which have also had a second root pruning and wiring. So far, I haven't lost any of the pines during the second root pruning.

I think I've definitely come to appreciate growing from seed more than ordering the two year old bare-root stock. I know Brent prefers going the bare-root route because of his climate. Here in central NC I'm seeing an acceptable success rate with growing from seed... 80% of the seeds that sprout make it through the initial tap root pruning and I'm happy to report that I see about a 90% germination rate with the seeds from Misho.

Also, you'll see this year's attempt at grafting other JBP varieties onto bare-root stock. I was able to provide our club with over 75 three year old JBP for use in our grafting class this past February.

I tried nine grafts myself and it appears that five of them have survived. Now I'll have some Nishiki and Banshoho as well as a couple of grafted Japanese White Pine.

Hmmm... looks like I have the growing / propagating part down now. Only took four years. So now I just need to figure out how to make them into Bonsai.

mapleman77
June 1st, 2009, 12:07 PM
Hi Cray13,

I love your pines! They look exactly like I want mine to look in the next few years. I actually have a grand total of 2 JBP seedlings that are now 3 years old. I grew some awhile back and had absolutely NO idea how to take care of them...I'm surprised that even these 2 made it! But i'm ordering an ounce of JBP seeds in January so I'll have plenty seedlings after that. I'm planning to do the root cutting thing for a good nebari and use as many as I can for grafting JWP and some JBP cultivars (mainly interested in 'Koto buki' black pine and a few rare White Pine cvs.)

I was going to order some Mikawa seeds from Misho but I decided against it; I'm going to get more things besides pine so I am ordering from F. W. Schumacher's (treeshrubseeds.com). Great place; I ordered 2 species of true cedar this year and I had excellent results. I can't wait to be growing more pines next year.

Love the pics, i'm doing much the same with what I have right now. I have some "yamadori" 4" flats (collected from the side of the road, ;) ) that have worked very well for me. I plan to use all of them and order many more so I have enough pots to put all of my seedlings in.

Can you describe more of the processes that you use to grow them? I'm interested in as much information about starting them as I can.

Great thread, excellent information, thanks all.
David

FrankP999
June 13th, 2010, 07:12 AM
I have a few young seedlings like those in the second photo http://bonsainut.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=6664&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1243384064

I have identified one sacrifice branch on each that I will not candle or prune. My question is about pruning/candling the other candles. Do I perform the traditional candle removing technique on the other branches?

Thanks

Frank

FrankP999
June 14th, 2010, 11:17 PM
Anyone?

Frank

Bill S
June 15th, 2010, 06:16 AM
Frank thats a good question that doesnt get answered well, my best advice is to read Brents articles a couple of times, one is more refinement, the other is just growing out. For the most part you let them grow but you do need to work those to be saved branches a little here and there. Then there is always grafting later on. - http://www.evergreengardenworks.com/index.htm

FrankP999
June 15th, 2010, 03:34 PM
Thanks Bill

Eric Schrader
June 28th, 2010, 09:07 PM
I tend to remove branches that are intermediate - the ones low on the sacrifice branch will shade out the ones that you want to keep. And I either decandle or prune the branches that are keepers once a year or every other year depending on how it's growing. If you don't do some pruning or decandling then the branches will be too long with no sub-branching.

I find that the process of growing pines from seed is quite challenging - the biggest challenge is anticipating what a tree will look like 5 years in the future....and it's only after I've been doing this for five years that I really understand a little better. If I start more from seed now I think I would have a better result than from the first batch.