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Ross
April 20th, 2013, 02:05 PM
Hello all,
I just received my Makita GD0600 die-grinder, and now I need some bits. I have heard good things about the Terrier and Weasel bits from Kaizen Bonsai, and I have also heard people mention the Samurai and Ninja bits as well. Basically I need something to carve down some sizeable elm 'stumps' so I need something that removes wood quickly. I also have a decent Dremel (10.8V lithium cordless) that I can use for smaller/detail work. I'd rather not buy everything just yet, so if I had to start with one bit for the die-grinder and one for the Dremel, what would you recommend?

I've also seen these recommended in previous threads, are they at all comparable to the aforementioned 'bonsai' bits?
http://www.treelineusa.com/power-carving-burs
http://www.amazon.com/Kempston-501021-Keyhole-Cutting-Diameter/dp/B0013KXSOG/ref=sr_1_13?s=hi&ie=UTF8&qid=1351785276&sr=1-13

Also, can someone PM me with an email address or phone number for Dale Cochoy? I'd like to ask him some questions and order from him if possible but I don't have a facebook account so i can't contact him there. Does anyone else sell these bits domestically besides Dale? I just asked a lot of questions in one post so thanks for any replies!

Ross

Ross
April 20th, 2013, 02:19 PM
I should add that I plan on using a router speed control like this one from Harbor Freight so I can dial the grinder down to use with bits that require less RPM. Thanks.

http://www.harborfreight.com/router-speed-control-43060.html

Poink88
April 20th, 2013, 02:35 PM
I use this...
http://www.amazon.com/Freud-18-104-4-Inch-Diameter-Router/dp/B00004T7DD/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1366493410&sr=8-4

It comes in different radius too.

So does Dan Robinson...the only bit he used during the convention demo and workshops. Cheap and removes wood super fast. ;) Actually he used another but more like an epoxied brush for clean up.

Someone else uses the much more expensive terrier during the demo (will remain nameless) and it doesn't cut as fast as the router bit. ;)

Ross
April 20th, 2013, 02:50 PM
I use this...
http://www.amazon.com/Freud-18-104-4-Inch-Diameter-Router/dp/B00004T7DD/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1366493410&sr=8-4

It comes in different radius too.

So does Dan Robinson...the only bit he used during the convention demo and workshops. Cheap and removes wood super fast. ;) Actually he used another but more like an epoxied brush for clean up.

Someone else uses the much more expensive terrier during the demo (will remain nameless) and it doesn't cut as fast as the router bit. ;)

I saw that you recommended that same bit in this thread : http://bonsainut.com/forums/showthread.php?9316-Grinder-opinions
...but you also said that some people think it's a no-no. Why so? Is that bit not really designed for a die-grinder?

Poink88
April 20th, 2013, 02:58 PM
I saw that you recommended that same bit in this thread : http://bonsainut.com/forums/showthread.php?9316-Grinder-opinions
...but you also said that some people think it's a no-no. Why so? Is that bit not really designed for a die-grinder?

It is designed for a router which goes much faster so I cannot see the reason why people claim it could be unsafe. Any carving bit is unsafe IF you don't use it properly.

I actually asked Dan Robinson that question and he basically said *beep* those people who doesn't use their brains. He endorsed the router bit during the workshops and during the demo. He uses Whiteside which is a great brand but I prefer Freud.

I am just suggesting it but it is up to you. ;)

mcpesq817
April 20th, 2013, 03:31 PM
I have the Terrier bit, which I got from Dale a couple of years ago. It works very well. The Samurai and Ninja bits are quite larger if I remember correctly.

It all depends on how much wood you want to remove and how fast you want to remove it. For me, the Terrier works just fine. The larger bits could have come in handy for a couple of trees that I own, but I wasn't going to drop $150 on a bit that I would use two or three times. For me, I was going to get a lot more use out of the Terrier, so it made more sense for me.

crust
April 20th, 2013, 05:27 PM
It is designed for a router which goes much faster so I cannot see the reason why people claim it could be unsafe. Any carving bit is unsafe IF you don't use it properly.

I actually asked Dan Robinson that question and he basically said *beep* those people who doesn't use their brains. He endorsed the router bit during the workshops and during the demo. He uses Whiteside which is a great brand but I prefer Freud.

I am just suggesting it but it is up to you. ;)I actually think the core box router bits like you are referring to are pretty darned safe. It takes a little experience to anticipate the jumpiness. The problem I find with the one bit carving is unless you are working with big stuff it is just too large and unvaried.

Ross
April 20th, 2013, 06:55 PM
I actually think the core box router bits like you are referring to are pretty darned safe. It takes a little experience to anticipate the jumpiness. The problem I find with the one bit carving is unless you are working with big stuff it is just too large and unvaried.

How do you handle a bit like that? I've never seen one in action. Should it be pulled left-to-right? Will it cut when being drawn back towards me? Can it be plunged into the wood? Sorry if I have a million questions, thanks for all advice.

jkd2572
April 20th, 2013, 07:34 PM
The bits from Kaisen bonsai are far superior than anything I have purchased from tree line, but the are pricey. I have the weasel and its just better than anything I have ever purchased I also purchased the sharpener and still use the same bit today all of the others I have purchased just wear out. I would highly recommend the Kaisen bits. Everything else I have tried get bent shafts or just don't cut. They all have really been a disappointing except anything I have bought from kaisen.

Poink88
April 20th, 2013, 07:53 PM
How do you handle a bit like that? I've never seen one in action. Should it be pulled left-to-right? Will it cut when being drawn back towards me? Can it be plunged into the wood? Sorry if I have a million questions, thanks for all advice.

It can be plunged and I prefer pulling it towards me. Secret to control is to take thin slices. IMHO, if you cannot control this bit...sell your die grinder ;)

Dan teaches to control it by holding the front with just the thumb and pointy finger....the rest are in contact with the wood being carved. I haven't practiced that technique yet but I will.

Poink88
April 20th, 2013, 08:02 PM
Before you spend $130 or $150 on a fancy bit...I highly encourage you to try the $15.45 bit. If you do not like it you are only out by that much. Better yet, I will buy it back from you. Can't get any better than that. :cool:

BTW, Dale Cochoy sell these also and he said whenever he go to Japan he always sells out.

berobinson82
April 20th, 2013, 08:34 PM
Before you spend $130 or $150 on a fancy bit...I highly encourage you to try the $15.45 bit. If you do not like it you are only out by that much. Better yet, I will buy it back from you. Can't get any better than that. :cool:

BTW, Dale Cochoy sell these also and he said whenever he go to Japan he always sells out.

Taking you up on this deal.

Poink88
April 20th, 2013, 08:39 PM
Taking you up on this deal.

Offer was for Ross only...not everyone. ;)

Ross
April 20th, 2013, 08:40 PM
What's the better, more versatile bit between the weasel and terrier, or do they serve different purposes? Should I just bite the bullet and buy both of them? Here are pics of my two biggest trees for reference. It looks like the large Terrier bit and the largest weasel bit (103) are both 25mm in diameter. Would it make sense to get the large Terrier for bulk wood removal and then the slightly smaller Weasel 102 (18mm) for rough carving? I will probably also pick up a core box router bit like the one Dario linked, just to give it a whirl...:p

Ross
April 20th, 2013, 08:46 PM
Offer was for Ross only...not everyone. ;)

That's a sweet offer, and I'm going to order one tonight based on what you've said about it. If I don't like it, I'll hold on to it and just give it to you in person at some point whether I'm down in Austin or you're up in Dallas. :)

Poink88
April 20th, 2013, 08:52 PM
Ross, note that carving is not about the bit or tool...it is about the carver. It will take lots of practice (or talent) before you can produce believable carving. I hope you won't attack those nice stocks right away. I'd hate to see them destroyed. The last pic looks like a monster and an awesome one at that! :eek: :cool:

Good luck!

Poink88
April 20th, 2013, 08:59 PM
BTW, I also use this keyhole bit. It works in a way like the weasel/terrier but it has cornered edge (not round). That said, it is good enough for me.

http://www.amazon.com/Kempston-501021-Keyhole-Cutting-Diameter/dp/B0013KXSOG/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pd_S_nC?ie=UTF8&colid=5ZVUMZ1HYG6A&coliid=I3TB4E3R9F90T9

or

http://www.amazon.com/Kempston-501011-Keyhole-Cutting-Diameter/dp/B0013KXSMS/ref=pd_bxgy_hi_text_y

Ross
April 20th, 2013, 09:05 PM
...I hope you won't attack those nice stocks right away. I'd hate to see them destroyed...

Thanks for the vote of confidence Dario! :eek: These will not be the first two trees I use the die grinder on, but I do plan on having a go at the Pyracantha pretty soon because it has a branch emerging from behind one of the 'sub-trunks' I cut, and I want to carve down and let it have room to grow horizontally. Finishing work will come later, these trees were just collected this spring.

Ross
April 20th, 2013, 09:06 PM
BTW, I also use this keyhole bit. It works in a way like the weasel/terrier but it has cornered edge (not round). That said, it is good enough for me.

http://www.amazon.com/Kempston-501021-Keyhole-Cutting-Diameter/dp/B0013KXSOG/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pd_S_nC?ie=UTF8&colid=5ZVUMZ1HYG6A&coliid=I3TB4E3R9F90T9

or

http://www.amazon.com/Kempston-501011-Keyhole-Cutting-Diameter/dp/B0013KXSMS/ref=pd_bxgy_hi_text_y


Is this the one Dan was using? -
http://www.amazon.com/Whiteside-WSSC41-Flute-Bottom-Veining/dp/B000K2AJ0Y/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1366516364&sr=8-1&keywords=Whiteside+SC41

Poink88
April 20th, 2013, 09:08 PM
Thanks for the vote of confidence Dario! :eek:

Sorry, not knowing your carving experience, I am just throwing a word of caution. Better that than be sorry later. As I said, I would hate to see these nice materials ruined.

Poink88
April 20th, 2013, 09:11 PM
Is this the one Dan was using? -
http://www.amazon.com/Whiteside-WSSC41-Flute-Bottom-Veining/dp/B000K2AJ0Y/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1366516364&sr=8-1&keywords=Whiteside+SC41

Looks like it. I know that is the brand, it is well known, and one of the top quality brands. :)

Ross
April 20th, 2013, 09:16 PM
Sorry, not knowing your carving experience, I am just throwing a word of caution. Better that than be sorry later. As I said, I would hate to see these nice materials ruined.

No, you have every reason to be nervous for those trees because I have zero carving experience! You gotta start somewhere though, and I have a bunch of other crummy trees to practice on, so what do I have to lose...aside from a couple fingers!

berobinson82
April 20th, 2013, 10:24 PM
Offer was for Ross only...not everyone. ;)

I laughed out loud. I'll still weigh in on the bit. :)

Smoke
April 20th, 2013, 10:58 PM
I actually think the core box router bits like you are referring to are pretty darned safe. It takes a little experience to anticipate the jumpiness. The problem I find with the one bit carving is unless you are working with big stuff it is just too large and unvaried.

I have been using router bits for carving for decades. Core box router bits come in all sizes.

I have them from 1/8 inch to 3/4 inch. They are safe but do catch on wood when pushed too hard. They will remove a 3/4 inch branch in a split second. You can cut a 4 inch thick tree in half with a 1/2 inch bit in about 22 seconds. I do not place any fingers nor hands on the tree. Both hands are on the grinder at all times. Anyone that professes otherwise is just fooling themselves. I have all my fingers and have been a construction worker for 42 years. I have known kids in the trade for a couple years and already have digits missing. Just plain stupid.

Buying a particular brand is also not very smart. Don't pay for names. Just buy a good carbide tipped router bit and it will last a life time unless you hit embedded copper wire, pray that you don't. It isn't pretty!

Brian Underwood
April 20th, 2013, 11:53 PM
I do quite a "bit" of carving myself and have used the terrier, shogun, shogun master, samurai, and weasels. They all work great, but if I had to choose one, it would be the "little terrier" or "shogun master." You can do a lot more with a small bit than with a large one, but the bigger holes/carves require more time. As Al said, keep both hands on the router, secure the tree well, and clear out any wire before going to work. Have fun and be safe!

milehigh_7
April 21st, 2013, 12:54 AM
Hey Al Harbor Freight has that long neck straight die grinder on sale this month for $27 I am gonna go grab me one.

tismeisthatu
April 21st, 2013, 12:58 AM
Please excuse my stupidity people but I'm a little confused. Are you saying normal router bits will fit a dremel like tool or just a die-grinder.

milehigh_7
April 21st, 2013, 01:08 AM
Please excuse my stupidity people but I'm a little confused. Are you saying normal router bits will fit a dremel like tool or just a die-grinder.
It is gonna depend on the shank. Dremel like tools are 1/8" and grinders are 1/4" or more.

Here are the little fellas I use in my dremel. 34671

They got a little beat up from an Acacia I did last night...

tismeisthatu
April 21st, 2013, 02:23 AM
It is gonna depend on the shank. Dremel like tools are 1/8" and grinders are 1/4" or more.

Here are the little fellas I use in my dremel. 34671

They got a little beat up from an Acacia I did last night...

Thank you, I have some of these but they seem to clogg up pretty quickly & also they wear out quickly.

Dav4
April 21st, 2013, 05:07 AM
I do not place any fingers nor hands on the tree. Both hands are on the grinder at all times. Anyone that professes otherwise is just fooling themselves. I have all my fingers and have been a construction worker for 42 years. I have known kids in the trade for a couple years and already have digits missing. Just plain stupid.



Thank you and can't agree more!

FWIW, I own the terrier and like it, but I tend to reach for some of the larger 1/4" shank Kutzall brand carving bits when I've got alot of wood to remove.

crust
April 21st, 2013, 05:23 AM
I have been using router bits for carving for decades. Core box router bits come in all sizes.

I have them from 1/8 inch to 3/4 inch. They are safe but do catch on wood when pushed too hard. They will remove a 3/4 inch branch in a split second. You can cut a 4 inch thick tree in half with a 1/2 inch bit in about 22 seconds. I do not place any fingers nor hands on the tree. Both hands are on the grinder at all times. Anyone that professes otherwise is just fooling themselves. I have all my fingers and have been a construction worker for 42 years. I have known kids in the trade for a couple years and already have digits missing. Just plain stupid.

Buying a particular brand is also not very smart. Don't pay for names. Just buy a good carbide tipped router bit and it will last a life time unless you hit embedded copper wire, pray that you don't. It isn't pretty!
So you working in construction...still? And for 42 years! Oh, and I am missing a digit-- torn from me via a wedding ring, not at work, but while moving some junk out of some ceiling joists. However I did tear the pads off my fingers in a wire green house collapse, nearly sliced two off with a Lancelot, then there was the planer accident when I was in my twenties.

Dav4
April 21st, 2013, 05:35 AM
then there was the planer accident when I was in my twenties.

Yikes!! For me, imagining my hand being pulled into a planer is right up there with generating the visceral fear of imagining being eaten alive by a shark.

crust
April 21st, 2013, 05:36 AM
How do you handle a bit like that? I've never seen one in action. Should it be pulled left-to-right? Will it cut when being drawn back towards me? Can it be plunged into the wood? Sorry if I have a million questions, thanks for all advice.
I can't explain things like this. I do it intuitively and adjust to the variables as they happen. Just buy one and get some live wood to work and do it. Be careful, use two hands, don't get is on anything that can be wound up, use eye wear. Study pictures of well carved wood that you want to emulate right before. Doing is more valuable than study at this point.

crust
April 21st, 2013, 05:43 AM
Yikes!! For me, imagining my hand being pulled into a planer is right up there with the visceral fear of being eaten alive by a shark. It was a portable electric planer( not a self feeding monster). What I was planing I held foolishly in my hand. It went "swing". The planed quickly descending through my finger tips. Great amount of blood ensued. I happen to be working on a elegant spa room clad in unfinished white poplar paneling which was delicately sprayed with crimson tendrils.

Smoke
April 21st, 2013, 08:20 AM
It was a portable electric planer( not a self feeding monster). What I was planing I held foolishly in my hand. It went "swing". The planed quickly descending through my finger tips. Great amount of blood ensued. I happen to be working on a elegant spa room clad in unfinished white poplar paneling which was delicately sprayed with crimson tendrils.

You paint a nasty picture.

BigDave
April 21st, 2013, 08:23 AM
delicately sprayed with crimson tendrils.

Crust you have a way with words...beautiful

Two hands on the tool is the common saying around the job site, Good tip AK, and all

Seems I'm
pushing 40 years in construction,also...arrrg still have all fingers, loads of cool scars though.
Seen a bunch of ugly accidents over the years.

I like the dremel and automach, just more relaxin,
Btw the structured carbide bits in the dremel are quite aggressive

When it loads up with sap, etc, you can hit them with the torch and it cleans it instantly

Good growing,

D

BigDave
April 21st, 2013, 08:25 AM
Whats a structured carbide cutter, you say

http://www.amazon.ca/Dremel-9935-16-Inch-Structured-Tungsten/dp/B00004UDJZ

youngsai
July 8th, 2013, 09:56 PM
This thread is great stuff guys, thank you all so much. I wish I had come here before grinding cheap bits to the bone on this giant seiju elm I have. But I'm here now, and I have decided to order these, and see how it goes-
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0002IXTJ4/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=A1DJ6SUVUT2VWZ
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00004T7DD/ref=ox_sc_act_title_2?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER

But I still had two questions-
1.) What epoxy is generally used to make the wire wheel brushes last longer and not burn like kindling (does anyone think this would work instead)
http://www.mastercarver.com/12-piece-texture-saw-set/


2.) Is there a bit I can buy for my 1/4" die grinder that will extend/lengthen the bit so I can get deeper in say, a uro?

bonsaibp
July 9th, 2013, 06:15 AM
I just use crazy glue on the wire brushes and they last way longer. I would never use some kind of adapter or extension on a bit- there are longer shaft bits they just cost.
Those little saws can be used for creating grain texture but will not replace the wire brushes.

Poink88
July 9th, 2013, 10:42 AM
2.) Is there a bit I can buy for my 1/4" die grinder that will extend/lengthen the bit so I can get deeper in say, a uro?

Major hazard. Even if you find an extension piece DO NOT use it!!! A minor deflection (talking about microns only which will happen) will cause major wobble when going at 25,000 rpm. You are most likely to have a projective shortly after. I repeat, DO NOT do it!

youngsai
July 10th, 2013, 05:14 PM
Thank you very much for making a point of it. I will stop my search... also the cheap router came today, and I tried it very quickly on the seiju, and it killed it! In a good way lol, it shredded that wood up! I'll post pics of before and after, now if I get long life outta this bit, it's gonna quickly become a favourite of mine. should i post those progressions here or start a new thread?

Dale Cochoy
August 27th, 2013, 01:18 PM
FYI,

http://bonsainut.com/forums/showthread.php?993-Power-Wood-Carving-Tools

Dale, still kicking.

Ross
March 16th, 2014, 11:26 AM
So I bought a Whiteside SC41 router bit (http://tinyurl.com/k9k3spj) and although it has a 1/4'' shank, it doesn't seem to fit in my Makita GD0600 (http://tinyurl.com/qguv7vf) which has a 1/4'' collet. I've never used this Makita before, so maybe I'm not putting it in right, but it seems just like a big version of my Dremel. I assume you loosen the collet cone, slide in the bit, tighten the collet cone, and then use the wrench to tighten it up further. This bit doesn't slide into the collet, it looks like it's just a little too big. What am I doing wrong? Should this bit fit in my Makita? Thanks for any help you guys can give.

Poink88
March 16th, 2014, 02:57 PM
So I bought a Whiteside SC41 router bit (http://tinyurl.com/k9k3spj) and although it has a 1/4'' shank, it doesn't seem to fit in my Makita GD0600 (http://tinyurl.com/qguv7vf) which has a 1/4'' collet. I've never used this Makita before, so maybe I'm not putting it in right, but it seems just like a big version of my Dremel. I assume you loosen the collet cone, slide in the bit, tighten the collet cone, and then use the wrench to tighten it up further. This bit doesn't slide into the collet, it looks like it's just a little too big. What am I doing wrong? Should this bit fit in my Makita? Thanks for any help you guys can give.

It should fit. Make sure the colet nut is loose before you try to insert...tightening it closes the colet inside. You need to use the 2 wrenches BTW...one to stop it from rotating the other to tighten/loosen the outer nut.

tmpgh
March 16th, 2014, 04:15 PM
FYI,

http://bonsainut.com/forums/showthread.php?993-Power-Wood-Carving-Tools

Dale, still kicking.

Still selling those 1/8 bits, Dale?

Dale Cochoy
March 19th, 2014, 11:33 AM
Still selling those 1/8 bits, Dale?

yes I am. The reports of my demise have been greatly exaggerated.

Dale Cochoy
March 19th, 2014, 11:43 AM
The bits from Kaisen bonsai are far superior than anything I have purchased from tree line, but the are pricey. I have the weasel and its just better than anything I have ever purchased I also purchased the sharpener and still use the same bit today all of the others I have purchased just wear out. I would highly recommend the Kaisen bits. Everything else I have tried get bent shafts or just don't cut. They all have really been a disappointing except anything I have bought from kaisen.

The WEASEL bit are made in the USA, not England! I have sold those for many years! I just don't have the internet video presence!
I call them Tri-Cuts or Rotary chisels. The cutting heads are solid tungsten carbide. I sell them for USA retail list price and USA shipping :>)
I USUALLY have a good supply and sell the 3 cutting faces A,B and D. I don't sell the C face as they are square cutting.